It is no secret that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as such is not found in the Bible. It is systematized from various Biblical texts by later Christians to present one coherent and accurate teaching that attempts to unify all true believers. Traditional Christianity holds that:

  • The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God (not three Gods)
  • The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal in power and glory (same in essence).
  • The Father functionally is superior to the Son and the Holy Spirit (both Son and the Spirit are obedient to the Father).

As we think through this important topic, here are few things to keep in mind:

First, the original Christ-following movement was still very Jewish and as such was not very interested in doctrines per se. What really concerned first-century Jews was not so much the details of correct beliefs, but rather the details of holy living.

Second, some Jews even prior to Jesus thought of the relation between God and his Word in nearly identical terms as does John’s Gospel (John 1:1). Other pre-Jesus Jews, among many intriguing things, believed in the notion of “the Son of Man” as eternal heavenly being whom God will one day seat on the throne of His glory.

Third, while the Apostles did not think of the Holy Spirit as simply God’s power void of any kind of personality (as in Jehovah Witnesses’ theology) there is embarrassingly little about the divinity of the Holy Spirit in New Testament.

I, therefore, conclude that if the Apostles were presented with the Christian doctrine of Trinity in its traditional form they would be deeply puzzled as to why such a systematization was necessary or considered essential. But then after being pressed for an answer, they would have with some hesitation agreed that the basic ideas presented to them were correct.

BEGIN YOUR JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY

274 COMMENTS

  1. I appreciate him stating the basic tenets of this theology so concisely. However, I’m afraid it is diametrically opposed to Jesus’ lucid theology of John 17:1-5 that only the Father is God. Thus, Jesus’ God was not a multipersonal construct but was a real person, the Father, who was not only functionally superior but also ontologically as well in Jesus’ monotheistic theology. Thus, if the apostles were pressed for an answer about it, there is no doubt they would have condemned it as unscriptural and problematic.

      • Respectfully:
        (1) People who do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity do so probably because they do not understand the transfinite mathematical complexities of ABSOLUTE INFINITY. Jesus was crucified for the very reason that He (i) put Himself on par with God, although clearly (ii) not on par with the Father.
        (2) In the Book of Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible (Revelation 22:12-13] it is clear that the coming Christ is supposed to be equated with God as the ‘Alpha and Omega’, and to be worshipped as such. “Believe in God, believe also in me.” (see John 14:1 and 14:11].
        (3) [1John 5:7] “For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE.”
        (P.S. In Gethsemane, Jesus prayed to His Father [John 17] that the disciples might also be ‘ONE’ like He and His Father were ONE … I am sure that Jesus never actually meant that His disciples’ individual personalities/spirits were to be mystically amalgamated into one single mind and consciousness, but that what He meant was for them only to be unified into a single-mindedness of purpose).
        (4) [Php 2:5] “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [Php 2:6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD:”
        (5) [Col 2:9] “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
        Kind regards,
        God bless you

        PietS.
        Centurion
        South Africa.

      • Jimspace quotes John 17, but one could equally well quote John 14:9 ‘Whoever has seen me has seen the Father’ in a specific reply to Thomas who wanted to see and get a handle on God the Father.

        I would also maintain the ‘one true God’ in John 17:3 is not intended to deny Jesus’ Godhood but to say that the other ‘gods’ of Baal, Jupiter etc are not real gods.
        Because the apostles did not explicitly define a Trinity does not mean they either believed or disbelieved in it. We have to look at the full orb of their message. On all occasions, Jesus links himself ontologically with the Father, while distinguishing their relationship – His of freely chosen obedience to His Father.

        • Since the Old Testament emphasis is on one God who is God alone (Deut 6:4) in opposition to the multiple gods mankind idolized, and is also included by Jesus in the greatest commandment (Mark 12:29), if apostles believed suddenly in a trinity, why did they not teach it? There are long NT passages about love or resurrection (not new ideas) – what about a concept that turned over what Hebrew Scriptures emphasized! Even Jesus didn’t use prime opportunities to teach this concept. Hebrews says Jesus is “image” or “representation” of, not actual God (Heb 1:3)

          • if Jesus is not God, then he cannot atone for our sins. He is just another man. He must be God otherwise his death on the cross was meaningless.

          • Don, although Jesus is man, conceived in the womb of a woman, he is God’s Son, without sin (Heb 4:15, 2 Cor 4:21), and designated to be the Lamb of God for the forgiveness of sin. God could not die on the cross since God cannot die. God determines what is adequate for atonement of sin, not our human ideas.

          • if you read dueteronomy 6:4 in hebrew, the part where it says the Lord our God is one, the word one here is actually the word oneness in hebrew. it would be better translated, hear o isreal: the Lord our God, the Lord is oneness.

          • That’s a curious claim. This word “echad” (literally the number one) appears 400+ times in the Hebrew Bible. What other passage would you point to in order to evidence that its true meaning should not be “one”, but rather “oneness”?

    • I believe in the Trinity because those that walk with Jesus could not truly understand His present so I can believe that this was above there knowledge at the time. God was talking to persons before man was made in God image.. God the Father can never be around sin. His plan to give man another time to fellowship with Him. God looked for a man to stand in the gap but found none so His sent His Son to tear down the wall that sin created. Jesus then returned then came the Holy Spirit to convict the world.

      • As the father sent me, so am I sending you…Jesus was addressing his apostles.
        This has answered the question that the apostles know about the father and the son.
        Also the holy spirit descended on the apostles..Jesus promised them that He will send the holy spirit , the paraclete that will be with them(mankind) till the end of time .
        Meaning that the apostles must have been taught about the trinity and of course they know.

        • Are you saying Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be with Mankind until the End Times? This is confusing for me. If so, why,to what purpose? Thank you very much!

      • I agree when JESUS started his work the father had for HIM to do , he was baptized ,and when he came up out of the water, GOD SPOKE FROM HEAVEN AND SAID THIS IS MY SON AND THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT LANDED ON HIM AS A DOVE.GOD THE FATHER GOD THE SON GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT .AS IT ALWAYS BEEN, AND ALWAYS WILL BE

          • Matthew 28:18-20 NIV
            Then Jesus came to them (the 11 disciples) and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

          • Elaine, are you aware that is a verse that has been added to in the fourth Century? That the most reliable scriptures predating the 4C do not have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

          • Thomas, I can find no evidence that your contention is correct. The critical apparatus of my Greek New Testament lists variations of the text for verse 17 and again for verse 20 but verse 19 is identical in all texts: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

          • No known Greek manuscripts of Matthew lack this phrase in v.19. Eusebius quotes this verse saying only “my name” instead of the trinitarian formula, but he has a habit of brevity and in other places he quotes the verse with the trinitarian formula.

          • Thomas O’Rourke , are you perhaps talking about Eusebius (Theophania, etc.)? It is most helpful if you provide easily accessible references that others can verify, rather than the relatively vague allusion “most reliable scriptures predating the 4C”.

      • God’s plan for fellowship with man is provided for by Jesus as sacrifice to cover sin. We have fellowship with God now through peace Jesus’ mediated (1 Timothy 2:5). After final resurrection, the faithful will have fellowship with God in person (Rev. 20-21).

        • The Hebrew word for “judge” is “dayan.” So if God is not referred to by that name in the passage you quote, then He was not the judge referred to. The Israelites certainly believed in “ha Ruach Kodesh,” the Spirit of God, since the first lines of Genesis describe this Spirit as moving over the waters and bringing life to the Earth. But the doctrine of the Trinity as we know it in Christianity ws formulated by Tertullian in the early third century AD. So the Apostles were not aware of it. Jesus, howeve,r told Nicodemus about ha Ruach..

          • In the OT historical books “elohim” often refers to “judges” or other leaders of Israel. It can also mean “God,” or “gods”. And “elohim” is a plural noun in Hebrew. Just sayin’.

          • That logic is impossible to follow most likely because it is not from Scripture. The Hebrew Word you reference is the act of judging as in executing judgment against or striving with or for someone/thing. It is not the language describes judgment as Kong’s on thrones did in Ps 45 and other places. The great difficulty of this movement is in trying to prove their point from a Word not the words. This entire article begins with a false premise, as does most everything I read from this site, that “we all know”. Intellectual inbreeding kills truth.

        • @ Mike: I respond to your “nope” with a “yep.” I go by the Hebrew text, not your special explanation. Please also read the NET Bible footnote.

      • In the Greek John called Jesus ‘the only begotten God’. Jesus called the Jews gods. Israel worshiped ‘the God of gods’ Josh22:22 Ps136:2 – children of God are gods Ps.82

        • Psalm 82 is not a human council. It is an angelic council, so no, God did not call humans god. In the New Testament humans are referred to as “sons of God” and never as god. When Jesus quoted Ps 82 he was referring to the council of heaven, not humans and he was quoting PS 82 as in explaining that God called his council gods, so he (Jesus) is also under the council of God-as in carrying out his will just as the divine council did also.

          • Psalm 82:6 says, “Ye are ELOIM (GODS), all of you, BENAI ELYON (SONS OF THE MOST HIGH)”. Does “sons of the Most High” refer to the council or to humans? The next verse answers: “But ye shall die as men…” Dying ELOHIM are humans on earth, not the council above. The Messiah spoke of those “to whom the word of God came” being called “GODS”, adding that “the scripture cannot be broken”. The word of God didn’t come to some heavenly council, but to humans on earth. It is therefore these humans he called “GODS”! Not some council above.

      • In Heb. 1:8 God the Father speaks to the Son: “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a ….but read Heb. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God (Yahwey) even thy God ( the God of the Son of God) hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Now If Jesus (Yahashua) is God then explain why he has a God which is his father named Yahwey. Presently the devil is the god (Greek Theos) of this world but Jesus (Yahashua) is the legitimate god (same Greek “Theos”) of this world..

        • Hypostatic Union is the union of the two natures (Divine and human) in the person of Jesus. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14, 10:30-33, 20:28, Phil. 2:5-8, Heb. 1:8). He is fully God and fully man (Col. 2:9), thus, He has two natures: God and man. He is not half God and half man. He is 100% God and 100% man. He never lost His divinity. He continued to exist as God when He became a man and added human nature to Himself (Phil. 2:5-11). Therefore, there is a “union in one person of a full human nature and a full divine nature.” Right now in Heaven there is a man, Jesus, who is our Mediator between us and God the Father (1 Tim. 2:5).

    • There are many very good arguments for both positions. However, I’m sure the Apostles were intelligent enough to understand that Adam was made in the image of YHWH, therefore YHWN must have a feminine nature. The “Trinity” theory, while useful in Christian theology, leaves NO room for a feminine aspect of HaShem. A true scholar, not one attempting to rationalize or prove his or her own belief, would be open to embrace the Echad of the Father. Folks need to stop trying to prove their belief system and just embrace the Hebrew Scriptures.

      • I find it interesting that anyone would think the Apostles were ignorant of any spiritual matters since they spent 3 years with Christ. I suspect they knew more then anyone of the people who call themselves scholars today. With the vast amount of manuscripts and other documents found over the last 100+ years, there is a consensus that the trinity teaching is a late teaching made to reflect the pagan beliefs of the later believers. What people believe or don’t about this topic really doesn’t change much anyway. Most people can’t get a handle on how to live from day to day as a believer with all the confusing and false doctrines taught in Christianity. Paul said it is all meaningless and vain babbling. Arguments over doctrines and neglecting the love of Yahweh. Love the Father and your brother, period, was Christ response. I have been studying this and other basic “Christian” doctrines for 10 yrs and read the work of others who have studied them for 40 and 50 years. To try and understand the whole relationship of Yahweh as it relates to the Son and the Spirit cannot be related in this short Post. It takes an understanding of the quantum and spiritual realities that cannot be found in our physical carnal minds.

        Two commands is what Christ stressed, love the Father and each other, take care of the least. Nothing else really matters except to puff yourself up in thinking you have a superior understanding. Yeshua said to many claiming all they did in His name that He didn’t know them, because they never had a true relationship with HIM.

    • Then how do you deal with the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6-“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Jesus in His human form certainly prayed to His Father, His God but His relationship went further than any person can fathom because His very essence came from the Father and as such was prophesied as “The Everlasting Father”. His submission is out and from relationship because it is familial.

        • Correction straight out of the Bible. The Bible is not the Word. To call the bible the Word of God is to give a thing divine status. That is idolatry. Jesus is God incarnate. He is called the Logos of God. John 1, The Logos became flesh. Hebrews 4 The Logos of God is sharper than any two edged sword. Revelation 19. And His Name is the Word of God. Never is the Bible called the Word of God. It is Holy Scripture.

    • How would you explain the eternal glorification of Jesus in verse five? Jesus’ acscription to the father as the God is not ontological ( if referring an earlier usage of the term “begotten” – it was understood as from the same essence- however this is not mentioned in this pericope), because v. 5 diametrically contradicts that your notion since time was created after the earth was created. Then, Jesus existing before the earth makes him eternal and therefore God.

    • Spot On Jimspace. I think the commentary is rather ambiguous, deliberately so, to accommodate the Trinitarian sects but is nothing that either Jesus or the apostles would have acceded to.

    • All ideas of God which deviate from or fall short of “the Father” revealed to us by Christ, are not the true God, and the knowledge of them is not life eternal. This does not exclude “the Son,” but is inconceivable without him. The Fatherhood expresses an eternal relation. Therefore they both are the one true God.

      • I see the connection based on our current day expression, “Like father, like son.” The spirit of God wishes to be within all of us. We pay attention to it in varying degrees. Yeshua, followed it to the greatest degree. Ergo, like Father, like son.

    • I agree with you Jimspace: Jeremiah 10:10 But The LORD (Hebrew word # H3068 which is Yahwey and mistransliterated as “The LORD”.) is the true God, he is the living God and everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble and the nations shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. If the translators of our English bibles had not Mistransliterated the 4 letter Tetragrammaton which is the Jewish national name of God and is in English Yahwey; and they did this over 6500 times in the OT.

    • See also Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 8:15-18, Proverbs 8:22-31, 30:4, Zechariah 6:13, 1Corinthians 15:24-28, Revelation 4:2, 7:9, 21:22-23, 22:1

    • As a Roman Catholic who have studied church doctrine and history under a religious formation program, I used to think of the doctrine of the holy trinity as a deep and abstruse mystery of faith. One day however, my eyes were opened that the mystery of the trinity actually stares every believer in the eye even in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, when the Spirit of God, the Creator hovers over the waters and God creates everything thru his Word: “and God said, Let there be light…etc.”; completely paralleling the opening chapter of the Gospel of John.

    • The best way to answer the question is to ask, “Did the Apostles of Jesus believe in the first Chapter of the Book of Genesis?”; which completely affirms the operation of God the Creator with the Spirit and his Word.

    • GB
      100% correct. Jesus was a man who endured temptation. Because He ovecame sin death could not hold him and was deified at His death.

      100% correct. Jesus was a man who endured temptation. Because He ovecame sin death could not hold him and was deified at His death.

  2. In my humble opinion, I would conclude that… 1. GOD is a spirit being and HE alone is the FATHER GOD 2. JESUS (YESHUA) was a real “soul”, with flesh and blood. HE alone is the SON OF GOD… 3. The HOLY SPIRIT was to come to us and be our “comforter”. It was to lead us into all “truth”… JESUS said that the HOLY SPIRIT would not come until He had left, and had returned to GOD His FATHER where He was before He came to the earth as a baby. The trinity is false!

    • Not sure I follow your logic, but again 🙂 we are not discussing here what you or me are thinking about trinity, but we are talking about the apostles.

      • Jesus was the only begotten of His Father in Heaven and not the son of the Holy Spirit. I personally believe that the Holy Spirit is the power with which the Father and the Son share as one. I also believe that the apostles believe that too. Paul always addressed his letters to the churches in the name of the Father and the Son and NEVER once mentioned the Holy Spirit in his address.

      • Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
        Kindly shed light on Dualism.

        When is the beginning (of what)?
        Kindly take us back to before the beginning.

        • At 82 affter absorbing Scripture, I have come to some conclusions which I share: 1) God is timeless, and we have only the vaguest idea of that–and so any “beginning” is our perspective–not that of God 2) the timeless core involves Jesus who was a human being. when the ancients said he had the same “nature” as God, they meant much as we do–I am like my father, shared half of his DNA, and I have something of his termperment. In Jesus’ case–He has and had the same “nature”–patience,creativity,love, forgiveness. 3) “Only begotten” is pure poetry. True, but not factual.

        • “Before the beginning” sounds like reading the pages that precede a book cover, kind of a self-defeating question. I think that the “Beginning” was not just the creation of the Earth, but of space and time as well. So before the beginning, there was no time, so there is nothing that we can comprehend prior to the “Beginning.” There was an Infinite and timeless “Uncaused Cause,” YHWH.

        • An old man of 82 who believes that the injunction of Jesus that Faith is something that keeps growing–here is where I am now. 1) God is timeless. Our language about “beginnings” are always our perspective–and only by imagery can come to some idea of timelessness. 2) Jesus grew to see Himself as “every man” (the “son of man”–more human than 1st Century’s Messiah-ship 3) It was that self-insight (and mine) that reveals his divinity–his unique Son-ship of the Creator, and His Sharing of that Nature. 4) God’s Spirit–as evidence in you and me–has that same “nature.”.

    • Trinity is not false. Yeshua taught us the way to the light. God is within you so study hard and learn the 22 Hebrew Letters

    • The Holy Spirit is not an “it”..HE IS A DIVINE PERSON!..GOD’S SPIRIT!.The Bible mentions the HOLY SPIRIT as a HE not an “it”

      • Except in these verses: Numbers 11:17, 25; John 1:32; Romans 8:16, 26; 1Peter 1:11 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rms8:16

  3. The trinity is a false, Platonic construction thrust upon Christendom. Shema! Israel. The Apostles would have rejected the Trinity doctrine vociferously.

  4. What I think is irrelevant if it is not based on the biblical worldview of the Bible. I agree with Dr.Eli that the apostles believe that there is one God and not the trinity he ( God) was revealed or manifested through flesh, who is Jesus Christ our savior, to save us from our sins. When they looked at Jesus they were looking at God who was the express image of God.

  5. God is neither here nor there, neither Po nor Ti as the Greek philosophers would say. He is seen in all the universe. God is a term out of place because Elohim of the Torah is a plural word that means God and Goddess made the earth. Christians are being taught in the church thinking that God is a man sitting upon a cloud. God is within us when people learn the Torah Or.

  6. If the Trinity wasn’t a concern to the earliest Christians, as you say here, and if they would have struggled to grasp it’s meanings, how can we describe the doctrine as a successful attempt to “unify all true believers?” Wouldn’t it rather be a source of division? Would not many of the earliest Christians have been heretics by later definitions?

    • That’s a good question. I am not sure. BUT struggling to grasp the meaning of trinity is nothing usual, I don’t know of one person who thought about it and did not struggle with it at all.

      • I’ve read another scholar who thinks that by the time the New Testament was written, they had already understood the Trinity, that it was just assumed. I think you are saying the opposite, that they hadn’t thought about it yet, and that’s because of the absence of them struggling with it. I think I agree with you, but if it wasn’t essential to the apostles, then it seems like it shouldn’t be essential now. So today, if Jews or Muslims can’t tolerate the doctrine, can’t they still be a follower of Jesus?

        • Yeshua came, a stumbling block to Israel. Not unto sin, but unto righteousness. The stone the builders rejected. Root out of dry ground despised and rejected. Sacrificial messianic life to inaugurate a new age rejected.

          But there are also stumbling blocks to ensnare Israel to sin. The Midianites encouraged fornication in the wilderness. Nebuchadnezzar commanded not to pray to Yahweh, and to bow before his idol. Constantine commanded not to observe Shabbath and other unique Torah injunctions. So too is the confusion between Yeshua and his own God Yahweh another stumbling block to keep the Jews from the truth.

          • More emphasis:
            “So too is the CONTRIVED confusion between Yeshua and his own God Yahweh (Rev 3:12) another stumbling block to keep the Jews from the truth.”

      • Just because the apostles would not have been familiar with the term “trinity” does not mean that they didn’t believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is what Jesus taught them. Of course there is only one God, but He manifested Himself in three Persons. Like water, ice, and vapor. Just because some Jews and some Gentiles have a hard time explaining it or accepting it doesn’t keep it from being truth that is clearly taught in the Holy Scriptures. Forget the terms and look at the meaning! Even the Godhead pronouns like “we” and “us” are taught in the Bible.

        • I did not say that they did not ever hear of the term “trinity” that is obvious, but what I mean is the concept behind the word was also not yet known to them. This important point.

          • Maybe this is why, baptism was performed in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to the gentiles for they did not know the true God, Jesus and worst, the Holy Spirit. It was necessary for them to be baptized under the three. (Echad). Conversely with the Jews, they were well aware of who the true God is and also who the Holy Spirit is, but they did not know Jesus. They therefore were baptized in the name of son Jesus only. ” Acts 2:38 , Mat 28:19.

      • Dr Eli. Isnt the idea of the trinity being missunderstood from a language perspective? Wouldn’t first century Christian’s, speaking Hebrew and Greek Koine understand the “father” as the first progenitor, the son as the the Word incarnate, and the spirit as the actual breath of God. 3 parts of 1

    • Can a man by searching find out God ? As I read my bible and ALL Scripture is inspired of God the Apostles certainly new God the Father Son And Holy Ghost. For instance we are baptised in each person Matt 28v19. In 2Cor 13v14 note the relationship one to the other. The Deity of Our Lord Jesus Christ 1John 1, Jn 3v13, Philippians 2v6. The Holy Ghost Gives gifts 1Cor 12v5-6.There is the sin against the Holy Ghost Matt12v32. He it was that overshadowed Mary. So we could continue. An interesting study.

      • The Apostles did not baptize calling on the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. According to scripture they baptized calling on the name of the Lord Jesus. The NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost

        • The word “name” meant a great deal more then and in the old kings english than it does now. Jesus quite plainly told them to baptize in the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
          You’ll have to try a little harder to prove the Oneness doctrine than that 😉

  7. What gets lost in the order of the trinity is the voice. Where does it come from? What does it offer? The Apostles took what was being offered. They received from His fullness (fully God & fully man). What about the Spirit? The Spirit gave testimony that Jesus was the Son of God (John 1: 34). The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit after Jesus showed them His hands, John 20:21 ( “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”) How can we be baptized with the Holy Spirit before the Spirit reveals His Death & Resurrection?

  8. I am still thinking this one through. The problem I am having with the trinity has to do with the Son. I did not recognize Jesus as God’s Son. I recognized Him as the Lamb of God. I see that John the Baptist accepted Jesus as the Lamb of God also. Is “all things were made through him” talking about creation or could it mean God Himself will provide the Lamb? (John 1:3) I see the test of Abraham “Take your son, your only son” but I don’t know how to apply it here.

  9. I also believe we know in part and when Jesus return we will know in full. The Holy Spirit was sent for the believers and He cannot lie because He is the Spirit of truth. He would correct any false statements about God and the Son for believers. I am a believer and I have no reason or been convicted. Those that walked with Jesus could not understand the resurrection even when Jesus do not try to hide it from them. They started to understand a lot more was the Holy Spirit arrived. The Trinity is real, three are one

  10. I am still struggling to understand why , I, (after repenting) needed to be replaced & converted to the Trinitarian doctrine. This made John 3:16 abstract (disconnected from God). I know that Jesus connected “repentance” with following Him (Matt 4:17 &19). This doesn’t help me connect to his Sonship. I think I found the missing link in “takes away the sin of the world” John 1:29. The word “takes” includes His voice. I heard His voice. He made me a believer and a follower prior to my conversion

  11. I do believe the doctrine of the Trinity is important and consistent with scripture. For more than one reason. However, perhaps the most important being that the Trinity allows God to be relational as part of His very Being, even before creation. And we see everywhere in Scripture how important relationship is to Him. We also see creation ascribed to all three.

    • Hi Lois. The doctrine is indeed important. Nevertheless we need need to keep in mind that the early believers were not working with a systematic theology in hand. A lot of theological reflection took place over many years during which time these issues crystalized.

  12. Interesting question: “Did the Apostles believe in the TRINITY”? Do you realize that the Translators of our modern English bibles misfits-transliterated God’s name (Yahwey), the 4 letter Hebrew Tetragrammaton over 6500 times as “The LORD”. This is OT. Then the NT did not follow the same practice which makes it impossible for NT to determine if the text is referring to Yahwey God or the the Lord Yahashua (whom they call Jesus). If the OT is read and Yahwey God’s name is correctly referenced as it should be; then it clears up many false beliefs such as Trinity.

  13. Simple. We have a round oak table with one center leg. And three separated circles on the floor 1) 2) & 3) Now I ask you to take the table apart and placed the top of the table on circle number one, the leg on circle number two, and the wood of the table on circle number three. Can you do it ? No, because the wood is not a third part of the table, just like the Holy Spirit is not a third person. It is the essence. (John 4:24) God is Spirit. = The table is wood.

  14. No they did not believe in the Trinity Trinity’s are all Pagan look up pagan origins of trinitarian ancient religions. Now we will look at Deuteronomy chapter 18 verses 15 through 19 where the father specifically tells Moses about the Messiah and how he the father above will put his words into Messiahs mouth personally. We know that the father said many times and what some call the Old Testament that he is the only Savior and Redeemer for Israel in all of mankind, including stating I am Yahuah your creator & there is no other… but messiah!

    • We welcome all opinions as long as they presented respectfully. I disagree. Yeshua is MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE THAN MESSIAH.

  15. Then must we throw-away the Old Testament, and the New Testament, for a lot of theological reflection took place over many years during which time these issues crystallized. (GOD FORBID !) GOD, thru the HOLY SPIRIT, inspired man to write the Old Testament and the New Testament.

  16. I tell you this, before Abraham was I AM After having said this the pharisees sought to kill him for blasphemy. Who being in the form of God, humbled Himself to become a man being found in the likeness of human flesh You can either choose to follow your own dogma or follow Christ. Stop worrying about how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle and don’t split hairs. Seek the Lord and He will lead you into all knowledge.

    • Bob, New Testament Greek is not so precise with regards to time as often taught. Εγο ειμι is more fluid as to time because the action is continuous instead of just at the time said. For that reason, the first couple of editions of the NASB had a marginal note “or ‘I was'” at that scripture. Added to that Jesus could not have been pointing Back to Ex.3:14-16 as commonly taught because of the Hebrew there “Ehyeh asher ehyeh.” That phrase is not in the present but the future instead meaning “I will be what I will be.”

      • Jesus does not mimic the Ex 3 name but He is effectively saying ‘That God, our God of Ex 3 who said ‘I will be who I will be’, well ‘I am He’ ‘I am the I am’.
        He is therefore referring back to Ex 3 but saying that that God has now come (in flesh)

        ??

  17. I was taught “trinity” but I do not like to use the term. In my opinion, attempting to fully explain God is impossible. If I could fully explain Him, I would BE Him. I like Deut 6:4 (the Shema) and that is the term I use. God is an “echad” — a unity. Do I fully understand that? No. But I don’t need to in order to be saved. I simply need to obey Jesus. And BTW, I am not Jewish.

  18. I do not use the term “trinity” although that is what I was taught. I use “echad” like it is written in Deut. 6:4, the Shema. I may not fully understand how echad is related to God, nor does anyone fully understand God. But salvation comes through repentance from sin through Jesus Christ.

  19. Dr. Eli, I enjoy your posts very much and share them with others. This subject disturbs me greatly because of its history. May I call the Jewish belief in the One God “Oneness”? This is a matter of Revelation verses the Communicated knowledge of the Trinity. I am saddened to hear You embrace it, but this will not prevent me from listening and learning from your vast knowledge of the Hebrew text, and culture. Thank you.

  20. Seems like the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity are inextricably linked. In order for the Incarnation to be true, God would have to be *at least* bi-une. Add to that the already existing Jewish idea of God and the Spirit of God, already eternally co-existent, and I don’t think the idea of a Trinity would seem strange to the apostles. Plus, Greco-Roman Gentiles would come into Christianity already familiar with anthropomorphic gods, though their ideas were flawed. So the idea of the Trinity would be new but not really all that new. Just my thoughts.

  21. Trinity dogma came from the church father in greek mind, like plato doctrine. We found the same thelogy in any cultures hindus, budish, summerian etc. Mat 28:19 is false was manipule for the canon. God is One…

  22. I give the beliefs of Polycarp an very early church father became the bishop/pastor of Smyrna from apostolic anointing. He led …… Polycarp also known as the heretic fighter Did Not Teach that the Holy Spirit Was G-d. Polycarp is the only possible direct apostolic successor considered by any church, his teacher was John the beloved he also only celebrated Pesach and fought against the establishment of Easter.

  23. By the way, how and when did the doctrine of Trinity start? What led to it and who started it all? It is a complex teaching that requires the help of the Holy Spirit in order to understand it. The early apostles did not teach the doctrine of Trinity. If it was important or necessary, I believe the Holy Spirit would have inspired at least one of them to teach it.

  24. TheTrinity evolved. At the Council of Nacae the concept became dominant. The Roman Catholic Church then adopted this concept. It became orthodox teaching after later Council’s. D

    • The council of Nicea was attended by mostly “Eastern” Bishop’s. So, allthough it was coordinated by Rome, it’s consistency was very much fully representative of Eastern Bishops.

  25. 1 John 5 – particularly verse 7 which reads: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

  26. I was a Christian. Now, I like to think I’m a follower of the “Way”. There is but one G-d. Yeshua was born human, as was Moshe. Both Moshe, and Yeshua did many wonders, ALL, by G-ds hand (Yeshua raising Lazarus). Yeshua was/is the “the Way, the Truth and the Life” Torah! Yeshua is the “Cornerstone” of the Kingdom. He knew he had to die to set that “Cornerstone”. Torah says that “No one can take the sins of another”, that Human sacrifice is an abomination. The end of my thoughts next.

    • “No one can take the sins of another?” Then hear Isaiah.
      Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our
      sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God,
      and afflicted. 5 But he [was] wounded for our
      transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the
      chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his
      stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone
      astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and
      Yahweh hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

      • Psalms 49: 7-9: “None of them [humans] can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him- For the redemption of their souls is costly…”

        We can see from this verse that if Yeshua was just a man, he could not have redeemed us.

  27. Continued from first post, G-d would NEVER change His laws, statues, precepts. Yeshua died to show that there is indeed more than death, there is life after the body stops working, the resurrection. Yeshua was murdered, not sacrificed, Yeshua has been and is appointed to be our High Priest and King. Praise YHWH for HIS wisdom and love. Yeshua is Torah, Blessed is he who comes in the name of YHWH

  28. With regards to the New Testament Corpus,when you are referring to the “Apostles”, you are really talking mostly about “Paul” and “John” . Both compliment each other and what both taught, should be weighed TOGETHER !! I have just completed a research assignment for my masters on second century Church Overseer, Irenaeus who shows how John’s Logos unpacks Paul “first and second Adam” .. “He became like us so that we could become like him “…

      • Not enough word space provided.. Trinitarian theology is easily understood when not only are Paul and John juxtaposed but also how the latter is used as a lens to the former. See Irenaeus established orthodoxy on the fully Divine and fully human attributes of the Messiah.

  29. Trinity never made sense to me. There is only one God – our Heavenly Father. Then there is the promised seed of the woman (Gen 3:15) who was our Lord, Jesus the Christ (Messiah) – thus the idea of Jesus was there from the very beginning of creation. The Holy Spirit (Comforter) is just the power of God. Somehow making these three into one God would have been abhorrent to the apostles (who were Jewish). Jesus (of the same flesh and blood that we have) accomplish all that his Father set before him was thereby the perfect sacrifice (lamb).

    • If the Holy Spirit is just the Power of god then Acts 10:38 (…’how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.’) would translate: ‘God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the power of God and with power’. How can that make sense?

      • John 16:7: – …’Instead, your hearts are filled with sorrow because I have told you these things. But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement.’… Notice the personal pronouns that Jesus uses to describe the Holy Spirit – Him, He – Jesus sent Him, He came, He will convict… – sounds like a person!

      • Ze 4
        Verse 6 … the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.

    • Amen, Horst! Maybe holy spirit is not “just” power of God? It is power and empowering. . . There is much I still have to understand about God’s spirit.

    • The concept of the Trinity is not a “Roman Catholic” doctrine. It is an early church doctrine. You are attempting guilt by association. In this instance, no association exists. The Council of Nicea primarily consisted of Eastern Bishop’s. At the time, there was no schisms, there was no Roman Catholic vs. Protestant vs Orthodox – there was only one church. We must study the formulation of doctrine in it’s historical context, so a correct understanding of doctrine is dependent upon a correct understanding of history, otherwise we make the same faulty associations.

  30. If we are the new temple where God now lives, and it is the Holy Spirit who was sent to live in us, and yet still, it is Jesus who knocks on our doors to enter herein how and why say we that the trinity is not the divine Godhead?

  31. …has in these last days spoken to us by His son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;” says very clearly that the son is the hands through whom the father made the worlds, in other words, they are NOT the same person. Again, you cannot be heir to yourself. Again, two different persons.

  32. The chemical formula of Water, Steam and Ice is H2O. Water quench your thirst, you can use Steam to cook and you can use Ice to cool your drink. In essence, the H2O is water that has different functions. God is One but has different functions. Genesis 1v1 refers to God as Elohiym (Plural). The Father conceptualize & decide, and he says the Word (Jesus) John 1v1-3, and the Holy Spirit (John 16v13) will performs that which Word has said. God is one and work in unionism with himself in three different functions. Scriptures already confirms the Apostles inputs.

  33. For Trinitarians, what do you make of 1 Corinthians 8:6: “yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live” (NKJV)? Why didn’t Paul include the Holy Spirit?

  34. Dr. Eli, I’m sorry that I conveyed the idea that I know what G-d CAN and CAN NOT do, NO one can do that. In the TaNaKah, YHWH never changes His Laws, Statues or precepts, that I remember reading. Moshe and Avraham did get G-d to reconsider His actions on destroying people though. I TRULEY enjoy your articles! Holy and Blessed is Adonai, the Lord our G-d! May He Bless you!

  35. The trouble with human thinking is that we equate ‘One God’ with ‘one person’ in a human sense, like each human is one person. How can we confine God to human understanding? I have read evidence presented for and against the trinity and both seem compelling and plausible. E.g. translations of John 1:1 – ‘The Logos was God’ and ‘The Logos was a god’ can both be grammatically correct in the original Greek. (Greek word Theon, the accusative, can mean both ‘God’ and ‘a god’). So I am still forming my understanding based on continuous study.

    • In Greek thought there are LOTS of gods, so that would be possible (Jehovah’s Witnesses teach this), but for the Hebrew mind, saying Jesus was A god would be unthinkable. Either he was God, or he was not (and John, and the Holy Spirit, got it wrong … yeah, right…).

  36. In light of my previous comments and those of others here, while my studies continue regarding the trinity (and therefore my understanding is in no way complete), I do not have a problem with the concept of One ‘being more than one’. After all the bible says my wife and I are one flesh yet we are two people with our own flesh. Christ will be coming for his ‘bride’ – one bride, yet many people. We are one body in Christ yet we are many churches made of many people.

  37. I respectfully disagree that the Apostles would’ve been in any way comfortable with the Trinity Doctrine. I will submit the fact that when Jesus was asked what the first and greatest law was he quoted from the Sh’ma. Given it’s uncompromising single God position I cannot see him teaching nor his Disciples having a Trinitarian teaching or understanding. There’s much more, however, I am not going to go for a big debate here.

    • The Shema teaches that YHVH is our God “alone” and that we are to love him. This is not a statement of God’s nature so much as it is our exclusivity of worship to him rather than any other. This word, “echad” refers to a unity, not a singular being.

  38. The trinity doesn’t explain the difference between the foundation (two-fold revelation of Christ) and what is being built on the foundation (binding and loosing – legislation). None of my doctrine survived the flames. I needed to see why I was still saved (God’s workmanship, not mine). “If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.”

  39. Does the scriptures teach that a person must believe in the trinity to be a true disciple of Yeshua? If yes, please help me with the text that say so. Is the popular trinity of coequal and co-eternal persons not ‘tritheism’?

    • Dear Shadrach, I think the answer to your question is no (for all heresy hunters out there, please, read about my own view on this in my article “Did Apostle believe in Trinity?” https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/did-the-apostles-believe-in-the-trinity/ I think (and I don’t think it is a secret at all) that Trinity as a doctrine in the form in which we have it today was indeed formulated later (not in Scriptural times). Having said that clearly in both Hebrew Bible and New Testament we have the idea of shared Divinity (Father and Son), things are much more difficult with the Holy Spirit. He is clearly not an energy (like electricity). He (in Hebrew it is a she) is a person, but divinity of the Holy Spirit we would be hard-pressed to find clearly spelled out in the Bible.

      • Really? So what about when the apostles told Annaias and Sapphira that they lied to God and to the Holy Spirit? And what about the baptismal formula in the “name of the Father,Son, and Holy Spirit.” And all throughout Scripture there are trinitarian references such as in the giving of Spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:4-8? And what about calling the Holy Spirit the Spriit of Christ? On and on it goes.

      • Dr Eli, What are you looking for re the divinity? the Holy Spirit came in place of the Son of God, He is so divine His holiness sanctifies & His power heals, restores & raises the death. I believe He is the feminine side of God. Jesus told the apostles only God could reveal to them that He is the Son of God. The Lord also taught them the prayer “Our Father”. Jacob wrestlered w an angel & it’s said he wrestled w God. I say, the apostles had all the first hand experiences w all 3 persons of God.

  40. Interesting (& lengthy) comments about the Trinity. None of the comments, however, mention that foundational statement in the older testament about the name and identification of God, as given to us twice, in EXODUS 3: 6, and again in Ex. 3: 15, when “God said to Moses, ‘Say to the Israelites, The Lord, the God of your fathers – the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob – has sent me to you.’ That is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation. ”
    Those who reject the Trinity choose to ignore this command from God. Now consider: the God revealed by Abraham is God the Father who gave promises to Abraham; and Abraham responded in faith (see Gen 12 & 15). The God revealed by Isaac is God the Son. In the binding of Isaac (Gen 22), Isaac played the sacrificial role that Jeshua would take two millennia later: carrying the wood, and then being laid upon the wood, as a sacrifice at Mt. Moria-Mt Zion. The God revealed by Jacob is God the Holy Spirit, who transforms a person into a born again believer, just as Jacob was transformed and renamed Israel (Gen 32:28).
    This identification of the Triune Godhead is repeated twice in the newer testament (see Matt. 32: 28, and Mark 12: 26).

  41. No, but Mary did! I say this humorously too but if you want to read into her experience of the Trinity, take a look at the Annunciation scene in Luke’s Gospel. Asking if the apostles believed in the Trinity is like asking Jesus if He believed in Papal Apostolic Succession. He would have looked at you quizzically! Question is anachronistically impossible.

  42. 1) in my opinion, the Trinity is better understood as non-verbal, an understanding of the mystery of three “dimensions” (from our viewpoint)–the creation-nature-science around us, the distinctive humanity of humans which is trans-natural, distinctively different from the rules of nature, etc., and then the individual conscience which so curiously we all seem to have (i.e, the “spirit” or attitude of God). I remind everybody that “‘begotten” is a metaphor–there is no way a “father”-god begets anything, having neither body, nor uterus. I say the “trinity” is a way to understand our reality in its three dimensions–going back each into the mystery of how we got all three–creation, human nature, and conscious-conscience–ultimate mysteries of our experience.
    2) It would be absurd for apostles to equate Jesus with Caesar, Augustus, Cleopatra and others who designated themselves ON THEIR COINS, as “god.” “God” did not have the same meaning across cultures. Eventually people might come to see that the person they saw as an extraordinary human being had the same “nature” (character, principles, virtues, attitudes, and sense of humor) as the Creator. I think that is the kind of “same nature”–even the very essence–of the two persons–they were like a good Father and a Son who is like him “in nature.”

  43. I have always found

    1Corinthians15:24-28

    a serious challenge to the “doctrine” of a co-equal “Trinity”. Sounds like the authority given to Jesus will ultimately be returned to the Father who will fully be “echad”. Comments?

    • I think that if someone understand the historic Christian doctrine of trinity vs. traditional popular version this tremendously important scripture would not look like a challenge at all. Systematic Theology (the subject that I know fair well, but don’t like it for methodological reasons 🙂 ), will explain that there is such a thing as ontological trinity (basically the equality of divine nature in father, son and spirit.), but then there is a economic/functional trinity that highlights among other things full submission of the Son to the Father, especially because in some important way Father is in fact greater than the Son. This is where the mystery comes in… economical trinity somehow co-exists with ontological trinity.

  44. Was it not Yeshua who introduced the Trinity to His disciples in the below mentioned scripture? Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    Matthew 28:19 NKJV

    • Shalom, Elena. The great commission truly places Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the same room so to speak, but the concept of trinity took several centuries to develop as we now no it. Some times people mistake my position with denial of trinity/triunity – my positional certainly does no such thing. I however want to highlight that theological construct of trinity took time to develop as believers moved from Jewish model of being concerned with how to live life right to how to believe things in life right (a Christian model).

      • Dr Eli, I believe baptizing in the name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit is for Gentiles (as the Lord asked). The Jews need only baptizing in the name of Yeshua (according to Peter apostle apointed to Jews). BTW the Holy Spirit I had a thought often must a name since He is a person of God Head but not revealed? God alone is wise!! Thanks,

        • I’m not sure how to evidence a hypothesis like that since the Bible never records someone actually being baptized in the “name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” and rather records Gentiles being baptized only in the name of the Son (Samarians in Acts 8:12 and uncircumcised Romans in Acts 10:48).

          • Dr Eli I don’t have a question about baptism. I am asking if there’s a name for Holy Spirit revealed in the Jewish Bible. Thanks again,

          • In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is called the Comforter. But before Yeshua, the Spirit of God was essentially synonymous with wisdom. By the time of the Essenes and later the followers of Yeshua, the Holy Spirit became the force of God that reveals Truth and drives believers to do God’s will.

  45. The Lord has led me to Jesus prophecy in John 17:26, in the AKJ version of the Holy Bible, where He says He will declare the Fathers name. Through the Holy Ghost, remembering 1John 5:7 where it is written, “There are 3 that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.” Bears record means cast in stone. Jesus had said to the 11, previously, “If you have seen me, you have seen my Father, and now have, and know Him.”
    The Lord has led me to declare, “The name of the Creator is Jesus”, through the Holy Ghost.
    He has shown me the hidden truths from Genesis 4, 6, and 7. All flesh died on the face of the earth, the esrth, the dry ground etc. 13 times it says ground! Only 8 souls survived on water.
    For the Lords prophecies in Genesis 4:21 and 22 to be fulfilled, as well as Lamech’s prophecy in Genesis 4:24, 777 souls from the seed of Cain survived the flood on ice, the shadow of the Father, and the 3’d thing that covered the world 420p years ago.
    I have waited upon the Lord for many years, and have spoken about what He has led me to know on you tube.
    Please look up, “They that wait upon the Lord Ken MacKinnon”.
    Yours truly,
    Ken Mackinnon.

  46. True Trinity has nothing to do with equality of Yahweh and Yeshua. Yeshua cannot be equal to his own God Yahweh (Rev 3:12). Neither is he the same person with the one Yahweh, for Yahweh echad (Deut 6:4). Nor does Yahweh recognize any God with him (Deut 32:39). The glory Yeshua had at the beginning was not “with” Yahweh, but “beside” (Greek para) Yahweh (John 17:5). There was a beginning before the creation of the heavens and the earth. Such as the wisdom of Yahweh were created in that beginning (Proverbs 8:22-23). But Yahweh has no beginning.

    True Trinity is rather a strictly functional concept. Yahweh possesses the will done in the heavens and to be done on the earth (Matthew 6:10). Yeshua possesses the approved pattern of obedience (John 8:29b; Matt 3:17). And the Holy Spirit is the promised spirit to bring about everlasting righteousness (Ezekiel 36:26-28). Yahweh designed the Trinity to establish the new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells.

  47. To me, Trinity is the simple way to explain the program of God as regard the salvation of mankind. God said in Genesis, the seed of the woman shall bruise the head of the serpent. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, i see it in term of function and relationship. I believe there is no impossibility with God. The Father is not the Son the Holy Spirit is not father but the fact is the Father is God. The Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. God is not three but one. You can only relate with one God at a time. When one of His disciples asked Jesus to show him the Father, Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen my Father. Today on earth Christians are relating with God the Holy Spirit. At millennium i believe i will see God the Son and at eternity i will relate and see only God the Father. God is not three but God is one person, and you can only see one God at a time

  48. These personal points of view, while interesting, are simply personal points of view. What self-indulgence makes us think that we can understand the nature of God? We ignore the whole concept of “mystery” and the right of God to withhold information from us until we have grown more mature in our human condition. Don’t we do that with our own child when they are very young? Come on, everyone; let God be God. As a true parent tells his child: “some day you will understand what I have told you. Right now you are too young.”

  49. The writings of Polycarp give a lot of insight into the beliefs of the 1st century believers.

    Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John (the disciple that was loved by Y’shua/Jesus the one who rested his head on Messiah) not only was Polycarp instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna…always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true.

    If I remember correctly the idea of the Holy Spirit being one hypostasis of a trinity came from
    the famous heretic Valentinus in the early to mid 2nd century (note that Valentinus is considered to be a heretic by Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant, and Church of G-d adherents).

  50. Dr Eli,
    I wish to press for the truth of this view ….

    “But then after being pressed for an answer, they would have with some hesitation agreed that the basic ideas presented to them were correct.”

    By what means or basis WOULD the first Apostles agree on the Trinity? Coming to this space to learn … we might be well prepared to take Scripture to where it leads …

    \Chris

  51. One of the pieces of history that may be unknown to many is that Eusebius quoted Matthew 28:19 seventeen times as it appeared in all the known manuscripts, “Go ye therefore unto all nations teaching what I have taught you”.

    When pressured to change it to its current form, he refused, saying that unless there was at least one ancient text that contained the words, “… baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” it could not be included. At a subsequent time, apparently such a manuscript was “found”.

  52. Love also has a trinity… Intimate. Passion.. And committed… You must have all three to have a perfect love… Knowledge.. Wisdom and spirit you also must have all three…. Father Son and Holy Ghost….. Must have all three… 3=perfect

    • In the beginning GODS (Elohim) created…
      Trinity is not mentioned verbatim in Scripture but revealed ‘precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little’ (Is. 28:10). God wants to be known, and not necessarily understood. He has revealed what is necessary for our salvation.

  53. Love also has a trinity.. Intimate passion and commitment… You must have all three to have perfect love… Knowledge wisdom and spirit you also must have all three…. Father Son and Holy Ghost…. 3=perfect

  54. It is not strange that we do not understand everything concerning God.
    When Jesus say at Gospel : “why do you call me good; there is only One good, God”, he rather not proclaim doctrine of Trinity.

  55. Genesis 1:1 English form GOD singular in meaning =Elohim Hebrew word and is plural noun in form 3 or more! In the Hebrew translation! Does this suggest the Trinity?

  56. An egg is one thing, yet it consists of three distinct parts: a shell, a yolk, and the white. Each part is necessary and co-dependent on the other part to result in the oneness of the egg. The same thing is true of the Trinity.

  57. John 14 and John 17 speak well of the divinity of Jesus. I would not say he was half God / half man. I would say, he is totally God and totally man. As in Philippians, he stripped himself of his divinity, so he normally submits (with the human language of writers: evangelists, apostles … It is normal that he always refers to the Father with a false “hierarchy “In the divinity, the Trinity, I would say One God with 3 functions Finally, I would willingly accept that for us to be” finite “therefore limited, we must admit the infinite mystery.

    • The resurrected Jesus (Yeshua), no longer any percent man but 100 percent divine, so to speak, still called Yahweh “My God” in Rev 3:12. In resurrection, he remained subject to superior divinity! Trinity is not three persons in one God. There is but one God, the God of all, including resurrected Yeshua, and his name is Yahweh. Trinity is a functional relationship designed by Yahweh for his purposes, namely, the creation of the new heavens and new earth.

  58. I’m amazed at the comments above. You see, I’m not the “sharpest knife” in the drawer and I don’t claim to know all, see all (etc…) like most of you are portraying. All of you intellectuals vying for your opinions (yes opinions) to be the real answer! Only facts count!!
    Jesus told us that the Gospel is simple and easy to comprehend. It’s not complex; it’s right before your eyes in Genesis!!! Simply put: He is God, the Creator of all things. He can be anything He wants, even becoming human!!
    Blessings to you all!!!

  59. Enjoying all the insights. Seems like the Trinity possibly a answer to a question that really didn’t need asking. The ancient Hebrews had no problem with their text speaking of the One God and His Holy Spirit without needing a doctrine of the “duality”. We need the Trinity doctrine to be a partner in bringing kingdom why? Grace & Peace.

  60. I see God the Father, God the Son and God The Holy Spirit not as 1 + 1 +1 = 3
    BUT as 1 times 1 times 1 = 1
    I always pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. We are also told never to blaspheme The
    Holy Spirit.

  61. To 1John 5v7 to support trinity is problematic because that verse does not exist before the 15th century when 1t was added by Erasmus. Then of course we know the city of Rome does not deny that it tempered with Mattithyahu 28v18-19. It is very clear that YAHUSHA never taught trinity at any one time. When you read Yahuchanan 14v16-18 it is very clear the other helper is YAHUSHA in the form of HIS SPIRIT it is not another Being. Another problem with trinity is that it wants to equate the relationship of FATHER AND SON with the relationship of

  62. It is very evident that the SET APART SPIRIT is a SPIRIT and not a being. when you enter into the Sanctuary in the set apart place you see two piles of bread representing FATHER AND SON. When you enter into the most set apart you see two BEINGS THE FATHER AND THE HIGH PRIEST. THE SPIRIT is always represented by inanimate things like fire and water. Actually the SPIRIT is shown as the very person of YAHUAH FATHER and the very person of YAHUSHA the SON. One can not tear the very essence of their being.

  63. John 4v23-2 4 shows Elohim the FATHER is SPIRIT so does 2Corinth 3v17. There is ONE SPIRIT, This SPIRIT is the very personality of the FATHER which the SON inherited by virtue of being the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON which is the same SPIRIT we receive by virtue of being adopted sons and daughters. if we understand the SPIRIT as YAH’S Life, power, character, presence and Love then we will not create a third being in the nature of ELOHIM. We will see only the FATHER and SON. FATHER receives supreme worship through HIS SON.

  64. There is too much to disagree with but it keeps on our toes. Sure, modern Bibles deny the word of God with their liberalism and denial of Jesus. True Scripture is called the word of God so Matt 7:13,8:21, 11:28; John 10:35; Acts 4:21, 12:24, 13:7, 44, 46, 18:11; Romans 10:17; II Cor 2:17, 4:2; I Thess 2:13 and Hebrews 4:12.

  65. “The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal in power and glory (same in essence).” Right — this can be found in John 10:30… “hen” is “one”; and it’s neuter, representing here, but one essence and in totality. In 1 Cor. 2:10…the Spirit searches out even the depths of God — who else can do that but God? John 1:18 is also a strong indicator — “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has exegeted the Father… I would start there.

  66. So, as a conclusion, the Trinity is true? And the teachings about the Holy Trinity are true ? They are correct?
    I am asking because I am a Christian and I believe in the Holy Trinity.

    • The conclusion is that in many ways there is truth to the Trinity doctrine, but in some ways maybe not. There is a Father God that is spirit over all creation. There is a physical Son who having the essence and spirit of God became flesh and did the will of the Father as His visible representative. That spirit is also what God gives His children to empower them to do His will.

      • Isn’t the Trinity a mystery of faith that is beyond our reason but not against it? There are verses in the bible that mention all three divine persons together, Matt. 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, 1 Peter 1:2–3.

  67. When a man speaks, the actual sound of his voice is not a person but is the power or reflection of who is speaking. I believe the Holy Spirit is similarly the power of God, not actually a person.

  68. Trinity is Biblical and taught by the apostles. Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: The first known use of the word Trinity comes from Theophilus, Patriarch of Antioch, who in the year 180 used it in reference to “Godhead, to His work, and His wisdom.” By the 4th century, the word Trinity was being used to describe the indwelling of Three Persons in the Godhead. Strong’s Concordance for Godhead: the personal God revealed in the Bible who is triune.

  69. I grew up hearing trintity, but always in my deepest self understood the following.
    We were made in God’s image. We are also spirits who have souls and live in a body. Three parts, one person.
    Because… in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

  70. Everything was put under Jesus, except…1Corinthians 15:27 The Father who commanded it. Jesus is our Lord and God, we must adore him…Juan 20:28. Jesus created everything , because he is the image and verb of The Father, the first and the last. All of creation is held (upholds) in existance just by the breath of his word. At the very end he will bow to the father and present all to The Father in obedience and love…1Corinthians 15:28…As you may see, The Father is one (unique) Deuteronomio 6:4…Then The Holy Spirit is the Power of YHVH.

  71. These discussions about the Trinity only serve to complicate the mystery. Why don’t we try reading the first chapter of Genesis to give us the proper context. The chapter opens with the Spirit of God hovering over the waters of chaos. And God creates light and the rest of creation with his “Word”_ and God said “Let there be light”, “Let there be waters…”, “Let there be….”. The first chapter of Genesis is a good starting point for understanding the Trinity, one God in 3 persons or aspects _ Father Creator who creates by his Word, working thru his Spirit.

  72. My God is GOD, my Jesus is His one off Son.
    My GOD is immortal, Son/Jesus died for my sin.
    My GOD pleases Himself, my Jesus pleases His (& my) GOD. My GOD has never prayed, my Jesus everlives to intercede/pray for me. My GOD has never been seen by man, my Jesus has. My GOD speaks His own Words, my Jesus does not. My GOD speaks His own doctrine, my Jesus does not. My GOD is seated to the left of my Jesus, my J is on His right. Didn’t the disciples have the same GOD & His Son/Jesus?

  73. If the Trinity is not found in the Bible, not being taught either by the apostles, or, by its absence, by God Himself. Then could it not be said that the doctrine is man made,the outcome of man’s own personal opinion, rightly or wrongly. And in the end, is not applicable to one’s salvation, which is found in Christ alone. “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christand you shall be saved”

    • Belief in Trinity as historical doctrine I agree is not died to one’s personal forgiveness and right standing before God.

  74. The trinity is a model, to try and make sense of the relationship between God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In the end it doesn’t matter. There is God, there is Jesus, there is the Holy Spirit, and we are not called to understand the nature of the complex relationship between them, just to believe, and to follow; to love God, to love our neighbour, and to walk humbly with our God.

  75. It’s is all inclusive to be in the “Family of God.” The family includes: Father, Son, Holy Ghost, The Word, the Bride of Christ, and LOVE, for God is love. Our understanding is limited to what we see that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Family of God are in a different dimension, so it can include membership identities that we don’t understand. When Jesus returns, the family will be complete, and he will live among us.

  76. I would say the article pretty much has it nailed. Remember that Jesus died c. 30 AD, Paul was not converted until some 4-5 years later and the earliest epistle that can be used to support contemporary trinitarian theology was not written until c. 49 AD, some 20 years after Jesus’ death. This is not to suggest that the doctrine is wrong; but that it likely developed over 2 decades and seems to have been strongly influenced by Paul’s theology.

  77. I liked the way you dealt with this, since it echoes my general feeling. Even the word trinity is extrabiblical, but that does not make the concept unbiblical. Instead, it was a largely unnecessary attempt to explain thoughts that we were simply intended to accept rather than analyze to death. I was a little surprised that I did not see in the discussion thread any mention of one passage relevant to Jesus’ divinity:Philippians 2:6,7. He was truly divine, but emptied himself of that glory for the sake of his mission.

    • The passage is clearly important, but that of course is relevant to discussion of divinity of Jesus not Trinity :-). Trinity is more problematic, than Jesus’ divinity.

      • I bring it up because Christ’s divinity is relevant to the existence of three persons who yet were somehow one. Jesus was not necessarily eternally subservient to the Father. The truth is, we do not know how the pre-incarnate relationship played out, only that Jesus was a vital agent in the creation. Also, the arguments against a uniplural Godhead (I prefer to use the Biblical term “Godhead” rather than the human designation “Trinity”) focus so often on the idea that Jesus was not quite God. That his divinity (as much as he had) was his only through the begetting.

  78. Deu 6:4 Dr Eli, what does the Hebrew says in this verse about the L-RD our G-D is one L-RD? (I get that our Lord Jesus is our Savior Yeshua & Lord/Master Adoni) Thanks,

    • This verse (Deu.6:4) is the hallmark verse of Jewish monotheistic faith. The Hebrew is terse: “YHWH Eloheinu YHWH echad,” which quite literally is “YHWH our God YHWH one.” To make it flow in the English, translators supply the verb “to be.” So it’ll be either “YHWH is our God, YHWH is one” or “YHWH our God is one YHWH.” (Echad is the cardinal number one; not the word “united.”) Either way it doesn’t exactly buttress the trinity doctrine.

      • Dr. Eli
        What is the difference between echad and yiashit?
        If one reads the Greek Septuagint Genesis 2.24… (God blessed them and they become one flesh) has not the slightest doubt that He made then one in union, (echad.) It doesn’t mean that God joined them together siamese.
        Jesus also said.. You see me and you say you have not seen the Father. .. making Himself equal to God. Shall we take stones and stone Him as the Jews wanted to do that time every time he showed His deity?

        • I’m sorry Giorgos, but I don’t think I understood your point. Firstly, I don’t see a problem with the divinity of Yeshua, and secondly I don’t know what word you mean by “yiashit”. Please explain. Thank you.

  79. A picture being worth a thousand words.Lets look in the old testament at the ark of the covenant, the dwelling place of God. The items that were placed inside the ark were the tablets(the law) represents the father, the mana which came down from above(the son) and Arron’s staff wich budded(and was used with power to lead and empower in the wilderness, represents the holy spirit. It maybe areach for those that read, but for those who don’t, it comunicates a picture of the 3 that are 1

  80. The Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 2:10 searches out even the depths of God — who can do that but God? Jesus explained/exegeted God, John 1:18 — Who can do that but God? If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father… Ha Shem has a Name that can be pronounced again in Jesus — Acts 4:12 makes Jesus the Savior… Who else but God is the Savior? Well, Jesus wore the same title. I and the Father are One — John 10:30. “One” is “hen” in neuter gender — the essence is exactly the same. And so on…

  81. The word BIBLE is not in the BIBLE. This is just to state that the word TRINITY is also not in the BIBLE.

    Jesus said:
    I and the FATHER are one.
    If you have seen me you have seen the FATHER
    Deny me before men and I will deny you before the FATHER.
    I will send the HOLY SPIRIT when I leave you as your comforter.

    A brother in Christ Jesus – my eternal savior…..Mr. Rosalio A Corona (aka: Leo Corona).

    • Neither is the word COMPUTER, but no body is confused by the COMPUTER doctrine, or the BIBLE doctrine, so it’s not a perfect example. The TRINITY doctrine, however, is controversial.

  82. Is Jesus God or not?
    If Jesus is not God but He pretended he was, then he was a schizophrenic. Either you are God or you are not God. There are no small, medium or extra large size gods. Only in Greek mythology.
    In order to understand John 1.1 … and the Word was God, you must know the Greek Biblical koini language and grammar very well to get the full meaning. For example what does it show/mean if there is no article in front of a word/noun?
    The confusion starts from transliterations and not translations from the Greek language

    • Thanks for commenting Giorgos. The whole reason that the trinity is a controversial topic is because it is complex, and I wonder if your explanation doesn’t address the counterarguments. Is it possible that God filled Yeshua with His essence thereby making Yeshua divine? Otherwise you have to explain how God can die on a cross, etc. or else be stuck with two Gods.

      • No, Dr Eli. Gods are not created. Only idol gods (of this world) and satan’s gods promised to Adam and Eve are created. Jesus was God as in John 1.2 Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν.= He existed in the beginning with God. It is not by coincidence the prep. πρὸς is used here to show Jesus preexistence with Father.

        • Giorgos, notice it has a different feel when all the words are included. The inclusion of the definitive article “the” before God two of the three times changes the emphasis.
          John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
          1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the) God, and the Word was God.
          2 The same was in the beginning with (the) God.

  83. Yes, the apostles “believe in” the trinity though they did not name the triune God nor refer. They had personal experiences w all the persons of God. God the Father spoke at Jesus’ baptism. Jesus confirmed to His disciples, He was God the Son & also to Mary, “My Father & My God.” I’m not sure what the Jews thought He made Himself “equal” w God if the translation is accurate. God the Holy Spirit was Power & Fire on them, & increased because they were afraid.

  84. Dr Eli, Do the Jews know the name of the Holy Spirit? I don’t believe it’s in the Bible. The Father’s name is. (Our Lord left His disciples the great commission.) Christians don’t ever use the names (I don’t think any do) for baptism but the exact verse. Thanks,

    • In Jewish thought, the “Holy Spirit” or spirit of God is a source of Godly wisdom, knowledge or understanding. If it is more a force of God than a person per se, then it is no wonder than the Tanakh doesn’t supply it a fixed and personal name. The baptismal formula that mentions the Holy Spirit’s name could very well be referring to “name” in the sense of identity and authority instead of nomenclature though. But do you have a suggestion for the Holy Spirit’s name?

      • I know from the scriptures that all spirits are beings that communicate & even network ie principality & power in the air which are known in our faith community as military like ranks. Holy Spirit has all the intelligence, emotion & will like us this very much a person. BTW I call Him also Lord (may be not biblical) but my Comfortor & Advocate; come to think of it, they are the names of the Holy Spirit. The name of YHVH must be translated the LORD of hosts? Can I have your confirmation on this? Thanks.

        • The LORD of hosts = YHWH tseva’ot. The meaning of the name YHWH itself, according to current scholarship, has to do with the verb hayah, to be or exist. So YHWH would mean “the ever existing one.”

  85. Ancient Jewish scribes argued about a “Second YHWH” who appears many times in the scriptures. In some verses both YHWH appear in the same verse and are clearly distinguished. Alan Segal wrote a book detailing this called “Two Powers in Heaven” and Michael Heiser built on his work. Talking about “two YHWH” was not deemed heretical by the Jews until well after the time of Jesus, and the reason it eventually was is because so many Jews were believing what Jesus said when put under oath by the High Priest, “I am the Second YHWH spoken of in Daniel 7:13.”

  86. James Alison wrote a book “The Joy Of Being Wrong” that does a good job of explaining (as much as is possible) how three can be one. None of us are “individuals”. We are “interdividuals”, and the “me” that exists , only exists in relation to “another”. When people fall in love they often say of themselves, “I’m a new person”. Others will say the same thing to them “You have really changed since meeting so-and-so”. There really is a new person created. This is likely what Jesus was speaking of when He told people “You must be “born again”.

  87. Doesn’t it mean something though the Word of God calls him the “HOLY” Spirit? Even if, as you say, the Bible is not give overwhelming evidence of this then why is an attribute of God ascribed to the Spirit?

    • “Spirit” is synonymous with “driving force.” If you have an evil spirit, evil/bad things happen. If you have a good spirit, you feel good and act accordingly. God’s Holy Spirit drives/compels us to be holy and act holy. Therefore when we “walk in the Spirit” we act righteously.

  88. God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent, and operates outside of time as we understand it. He can be God in heavenly places and God in Christ Yeshua, and hover over Yeshua at His baptism as the Holy Spirit, all at the same time. Let us not limit an unlimited God….

    • You have completely found the God of the greek theologians who got their ideas by “fixing” the Olympian Gods. That is not the God of the Scriptures. I say this with hope that more people will read about our Father and stop the choosing of a Master who is borrowed

    • Kevin, I could not agree more!! Our human nature dictate that we think in human terms. We must believe, and therefore, accept like “children”. We may of course debate, it is a gift from God, after all. It remains a personal and intimate issue!! I pray for insight for all!!

  89. In the beginning of creation, God operated outside of time. He was with the Word (Yeshua) and the Holy Spirit was with them when all of creation began. Only Spirit filled believers can take on the divine nature and the mind of Christ to understand these matters.

  90. To: Yahka Mba. Please read Luke 24:36-43. There you will discover that your understanding that Yeshua was just a Spirit after his resurrection is not true. I firmly believe He was flesh and bone and Spirit with the ability to eat food and walk through walls and instantly disappear.

  91. I like the explanation,knowledge,wisdom and understanding that M.R. DeHaan. M.D. shares in his book THE CHEMISTRY OF THE BLOOD. Although for some it may be tough reading and difficult to think through at times. It is very insightful as to the importance of this one man YESHUA. Son of GOD.

  92. Peter certainly knew The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:1-4 Peter says to Ananias that “ You have lied to the Holy Spirit (verse 3) In verse 5 He says – you have not lied to men but to God.

  93. ANOTHER VIEW!!! There is only one eternal been and He has manifested himself in many forms Hebrew1:3 including the form of father, Son Human manifestation y Holy Spirit; 3 manifestations that many people had put it as persons. Having trinity is Idolatry. Father and Holy Spirit fathers of Jesus?

  94. There is no such things with God called three in one. God isn’t a gadget with part. Read : Isaiah 35:4-5
    say to those with fearful hearts,
    “Be strong, do not fear;
    your God will come,
    he will come with vengeance;
    with divine retribution
    he will come to save you.”

    5 Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
    and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

  95. What the Apostles believed is irrelevant, what matters is what we we do today. If you call yourself a Christian but act in a hateful manner, you have missed the mark. Love God, love your neighbor, that is all that matters.
    Peace,
    Clyde

  96. It is written GOD is one not GOD is three in one.i believe that GOD has a begotten SON whom HE gave to the world as the king of peace and right now is seated on the right side of GOD and they have sent the helper the HOLY SPIRIT

LEAVE A REPLY

Please enter your name here
Words left: 50
Please enter your comment!